Interview: Robbie Schaefer

Kids, for the most part, haven't yet learned not to laugh at themselves and the world around them. That's a really good and healthy place to be and as a performer and songwriter I feel a responsibility (and desire) to meet them there. Human beings are strange creatures--we should enjoy that.

Songs For Kids Like Us is one of the goofier records to be released in 2006, but in a good way. Robbie Schaefer, mastermind of the album, recently answered a few questions showed that the good humor on his CD comes naturally. Read on to find out about banging pots and pans, what songs on his album were factually based (including some that might surprise you), and the enduring popularity of KISS. (And thanks to Robbie for taking the time to answer these questions.)

What are your earliest memories of listening to music? Playing music?
My earliest memories of listening to music are with my grandparents. My grandfather is an accomplished pianist and cellist and he would sit at the piano and play (sometimes with me on his lap) while my grandmother leaned against the piano and sang. Those are very warm memories.

Reportedly, I was an excellent pot and pan musician as a toddler. I'd pull them out of the kitchen cabinets and start banging away. I believe I was particularly proficient on the 14" sauté pan and the 3 qt. boiler. You'd have thought my parents would have figured a few things out and moved the pots and pans to the cabinets above the counter---guess I’m thankful that they didn't.

You have had a long and successful career playing in the band you helped form, Eddie From Ohio. How did you get from that to putting out a kids' album?
I began doing children's music on a lark when my middle son (I have three) entered preschool. The director said she'd heard I was a musician and did I know of anyone that might be able and willing to take over the preschool music director's spot? Without thinking it through, I said, "um . . . I guess I could do that." Well, of course it was more involved than I’d expected, but I ended up teaching music there for four years and really loving it. That led to numerous opportunities doing children's shows elsewhere, and when Eddie From Ohio took an extended break from touring last year, I decided it was time to record my first children's album. It continues to be a wonderful experience.

How does playing in EFO affect your kids' music, if at all? How 'bout the other way -- did recording Songs For Kids Like Us have some effect on what you're doing now with EFO?
I don't know that one has that much to do with the other except in one way . . . Eddie from Ohio has always refused to take itself too seriously. I think we have shown that in our songs, but even more so in our live performances. I have found this to be an essential quality in children's artists as well. Kids, for the most part, haven't yet learned not to laugh at themselves and the world around them. That's a really good and healthy place to be and as a performer and songwriter I feel a responsibility (and desire) to meet them there. Human beings are strange creatures--we should enjoy that.

Which is easier for you -- music or lyrics? Does it matter if you're talking EFO vs. kids' music?
I don't think one is easier than the other for me. I tend to write both at the same time, whether it's efo or kid's music. Sometimes finishing the lyrics--a bridge, or a third verse--can be a challenge, but, especially with kid's songs, I think it's mostly a matter of opening your mind wider and wider and having fun.

What's your favorite song or two on Songs For Kids Like Us? Why?
Probably "Cowboy Bob" and "there's a carp in the tub". Cowboy Bob obviously goes over the head of many of the younger kids in the audience, but I just think it's really really funny. I still laugh at it. I find that parents find it funnier than the kids do, so it's one for all of us. "Carp" is one of my favorites because every bit of it is true--it's from a story my grandmother told me about her childhood growing up in Brooklyn.

"No! No! No!" is also one of my favorites because of the melody. That song actually did begin with the music--it was just a melody before I’d even though of any lyrics. It's catchy and you can dance to it ;-)

Were "No! No! No!" or "Resolution Song" inspired by your kids in particular, or perhaps by memories of your own childhood?
"No! No! No!" was definitely inspired by one of my kids, but I won't say which one. We must protect the guilty. "Resolution Song" is largely fictional with bits of my own life thrown in (the bit about locking the babysitter out of the house? I was the babysitter. Ugh.)

What music do you and your family listen to at home?
We listen to a variety of things. Ironically, now that I’ve finally put out a kid's album, my children are on the older side of my target audience. My eldest son is 12, middle one is 9, and the youngest is 8. But they all sing on the album and sometimes in concert with me as well. We listen to contemporary pop stuff (they love Ben Folds and, of course, Eddie From Ohio), some hip hop, some folk (they were in to Dave Carter and Tracy Grammar a couple of years back). My biggest guilty pleasure? The fact that my 12-year-old likes KISS--I loved KISS when I was 12!!! (I’m sure I’m going to get a call from protective services now).

Do you plan on recording more kids' music?
I don't have any plans to right now, but that's just because I’m currently focused on other projects. At the same time, Songs For Kids Like Us has been really well received--even surprisingly so--and I’m enjoying doing some touring and seeing how far I can carry it. It's a nice change from performing adult music--instead of someone offering to buy you a drink after the show, you get invited to a birthday party. Can't beat that!

Interview: Dan Zanes

It is not hyperbole to suggest that Dan Zanes is the godfather of the 21st century family music scene. If there's an article talking about the scene, he's sure to be quoted, and he's been kind in his praise for other kids' music artists, Elizabeth Mitchell and Justin Roberts, to name just two. With five kids' music CDs (the latest being Catch That Train!) and a DVD, plus videos on Playhouse Disney, Zanes has steadily built a devoted following among kids and their associated adults (our family included).

Zanes was kind enough to spend some time talking with me last week about a broad range of family music (or, as he's also termed it, "age-desegregated music") topics. Our conversation touched on, among other things, his upcoming tour of Australia, why new parents are great audiences, and the benefit CD he's recently put together. Read on, and enjoy.

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Zooglobble: Did you have a good summer? You've got a really busy fall coming up, so I hope you got some vacation in.

Dan Zanes: I did, yeah. Every summer we go up to Nova Scotia for a week with my mother and brother-in-law (Donald Saaf). We always do a gospel show up there and end up playing songs from the next CD. A lot comes out of it, so it's nice being completely removed from civilization.

It must be nice, to not have to deal with the computer and the phone all the time.

Yeah, even if I wanted to, I wouldn't be able to, I'm so far removed from things. The lack of communication is very healthy.

It's good to have time off.

Yeah, I sort of hate it, but I'm really grateful for it. It's really nice to have family time. It's sort of amazing how the years pass by.

I know -- my daughter started kindergarten couple week ago, and I'm thinking, "She's starting kindergarten? She can't be starting kindergarten!"

[Laughs] Wasn't she born last month?

[Laughs] I understand.

My daughter's starting seventh grade now, and I can clearly remember seventh grade. It seems like every year it gets faster and faster... the compression of time... That was some of the advice I got. You know how everyone offers advice when you have a baby? The one thing that was really meaningful was people saying to remember to enjoy every day.

I try to remember that, even when the kids are frustrating me. "You're gonna miss this when they're ten years older."

That's really true. That brings its own joy and satisfaction. I guess fall brings these thoughts into our heads... I can't really remember what fall's like in Arizona.

Fall is a season of relief from the unremitting heat so we like fall because we're glad to see the three-digit temperatures go away. It's a nice time -- everybody comes out of hiberation. We go into hibernation, we just do it six months shifted from most of the rest of the country...

Is your whole family going to Australia with you [for the Melbourne International Arts Festival]?

Yeah, my wife and daughter are going for the first half of that trip -- that's going to be great. We're at a point now where my daughter is actually getting her artist's visa and; that was one way we were able to go. The Festival's paying for her plane ticket and she'll come join us. Her life's dream is not to play music for a living or anything even close to that but she really enjoys the social aspect, which is the most important aspect of it. She's able to play the ukelele... so we can all play together.

That sounds like it's going to be a lot of fun, playing there for a week.

The whole trip ends up being close to two weeks, really. It's amazing that we're doing it -- it's a really prestigious arts festival. It's a big deal to be a North American family musician getting to travel overseas. It's very rare for any of us to be able to break out of North America, so I'm hoping this is the beginning of a lot more international travel.

Somebody in Australia sent me a link to a band they had just signed -- it was their first kids and family band. My sense is that although Australia might have a strong folk song tradition, they don't necessarily have a strong tradition of people making music more exclusively for kids. It'll be interesting for you to go over there as a band who's been doing this for a decade now -- it'll be fun for them as well as fun for you.

It feels as though there's a lot of excitement about our arrival. I've been reading some underground press about us for a couple years now... I have to say, it's one of the most exciting things we've done. We're playing at Carnegie Hall this fall. Between Carnegie Hall and going to Australia, I'm really filled with gratitude for how well everything's been going, coupled with the wild excitement of travelling. It's been nice to have the summer off from travelling, but I'm reminded of how much I miss it. I love the hotel rooms, love meeting the fans, love hanging out with my band under any circumstances.

Based on the DVD -- my sense is that the band is pretty close. You may all have your separate careers, but the interaction on stage looks like a lot of fun.

It's great. There's been some changes [on the tour] for all good reasons. That's the thing about having great people come into the band who have their own careers. Cynthia Hopkins, for example, I can't believe she was with us for as long as she was... I'm sure she'll keep coming to make records. And Barbara [Brousal], who plays guitar, is pregnant, is expecting, she might even be having a baby now. She won't be with us for the first few months in the fall.

But the most important thing is when people come to the shows they walk away thinking, "That looked like fun, I can do that, too." That, for me, is the most important thing beyond technical ability or anything else because hanging out with people and playing music -- eventually it's gonna sound good to my ear unless they're just barely able to play. It doesn't take much... you can make a cool sound with other people quite quickly.

For me, it's always gotta be people that are fun. The 23 hours off-stage are just as important. We'll go out into the lobby after shows and meet people -- that's another opportunity to help people get interested in playing instruments or thinking about songs. The people in the band have to be able to convey that message -- "It can be anyone -- don't leave it to the professionals."

One of the things I've always been interested in with you and your music is that sense of "everybody should just play music -- don't worry about whether or not you're good or bad, just get together and play music." Was that something that you did a lot when you were growing up? Because between you and your brother, your family ended up a little more musical than most, not from a career perspective, but just generally.

You know, we didn't have a particularly musical household beyond recorded music. My mother didn't play, my father didn't play, but my mother's always been very creative and my father was an English teacher so I think there was a lot put into that idea of creating something with your own hands.

But it was only later really, once I got interested in folk music, once I started learning a little bit more about it, and started to see it was inclusive; it can take so many forms... My stepfather used to do Shakespeare in the barn, every year they would put on a play and it was just real community theater. He would milk the cows and then clean up for the rehearsal. It was all ages, it was inclusive, community fun. That's what I like about it, the communal nature of it.

It's almost political, isn't it? Because I would suggest that the message coming down from the top is not one of community or cohesion here in America. It's really a very divisive climate that we're living in and so the idea of getting together with your friends and neighbors and singing songs or making music, making your entertainment that's free -- you don't have to buy anything to sing songs with other people -- it does bring us together and gives us a hope for the future and it restores our spirits.

For me, it always gives me a sense of what life can be, and the possibilities that we have all around us. I think to do that always makes me realize there's so much more available to us, that we can do so much better for each other, and for our country, and for our planet. You know that if people are getting together and questioning the way the things are going, that's not going to be good for George W. Bush or anybody around him, so there's a political aspect to it, if you're singing "Froggy Went A Courtin'" or whatever you're singing. It does make us all feel like life's possibilities are great, wild, vivid, and varied, and we're not experiencing them now.

And I think the same thing with this whole question of immigration... It's just the best thing that could be happening to America, the culture that's coming to us now from around the world, coming up from the south, it's incredible. I was travelling through Iowa last year, and I was going to small towns -- I'd go in for a few days and play as much music as possible, everywhere from libraries, schools, nursing homes, coffee shops, it was a program through the university in Iowa City -- and I was going to some towns that had a recent Mexican population of between 30% and 40%, all within the last fifteen years, so basically an explosion. It was so exciting, but people didn't all take it that way. But culturally what was coming in was incredible and the communities that chose to celebrate that and embrace it were by far the healthiest, happiest, most vibrant communities. For me, music is a great way to open the door. If I'm in touch with my heritage through music, I've got a way of telling my story to a person from another background. If they're in touch with their culture, then they've got something to share with me. Music is just so easy and underneath it all it's fun, it's really fun.

It sometimes seems that communal singing and music playing are a fading art, meaning, aside maybe from church, where you do a lot of singing together, there aren't necessarily a lot of outlets for people to come together, let loose their voices, and sing together. I would agree, it's probably hard to stay angry or distrustful of someone if you're singing with them.

I completely agree with that. I've been to bluegrass festivals where politically I couldn't have been more different from the people I was hanging around with, and yet, without really knowing that much about each other, we would all get together and play songs. It transcended everything and it really brought our common humanity to the forefront. That's a very, very valuable experience right now with these "red" and "blue" states, to have this experience of everybody being together.

Are there particular, concrete steps that you would suggest to a family or a community if they're looking to do more singing together or playing music together -- are there things that you've seen in your community or what you've done where you thought, "wow, that was easy and it really got everyone singing together or willing to play music," even if all they were doing is banging on a drum?

Yeah, this is my new theory. The first step is always gonna be hard, no matter what. Unless you've grown up doing this, and you've had exprience with little groups of people getting them to sing, it's always gonna be hard, always gonna feel awkward and a little weird, and it might not even sound great at first.

But even me, where I'm doing this constantly... I was at my office a few weeks ago and we were about to have a regular meeting for my label and there were four of us in there and someone had to be on the phone, so I got out my ukelele, which the woman who runs my label had asked me to bring one and keep it in the office, and said, "All right, from now on we're going to start every meeting with a song." I felt kind weird about it, and these are people I know really well and I love them all, but I said, "all right, we're gonna do 'Pay Me My Money Down', all you need to know is that every other line is 'pay me my money down.'" And one guy really didn't feel comfortable singing but he grabbed his box of Altoids and he was playing shaker and everybody else sang. You could feel it was kinda awkward for all of us, but we did it and it felt great and now I would never hesitate to do it again -- we broke the ice.

As long as you know that it might feel a little funny at first, the main thing is that everybody throw themselves into it in any way they can and that they shed their inhibitions. That's easier said than done, but the reason I love being in the world of new parents is because they're really doing that every day. They're doing things they've never done before every day, they're in semi-embarrassing situations...

They're being pushed out of their comfort zone.

Yeah, constantly. So they're already there in a lot of ways, and they'll dance around like lunatics at the drop of a hat. Whereas before they had kids... certainly I was a lot more uptight. So that message of "c'mon, just go ahead and do it," is easier to get across to parents and families, so I really feel like I'm hanging out with the right crowd. It's the doing of it, it's the learning of some songs. There's no need to learn an instrument. It's just basically memorizing some lyrics enough that you can get through a song. Start with one. Start with one song that you can teach other people to sing, or start with one song that you can comfortably sing for other people, and that's a tradition in itself. But I like those ones that everyone can join in on.

And "call and response," that's a great form. I always tell people, find some songs you like on any recording and learn 'em, it's really not that hard to do, and if you're really stuck, go to a Pete Seeger record -- he's walking everybody through it anyway. So many of those records are live records where he's teaching the audience. Anything you would ever need to know about singing with other people you can certainly find in a Pete Seeger record.

On the Catch That Train! CD, it sounded like there was a much greater focus on this idea of community and musicmaking -- all your CDs have some of that, but especially on Catch That Train! there did seem to be a much greater emphasis on that. Was that something you were consciously thinking of when you were selecting songs and recording songs?

Yeah, it really was. I thought your review... was everything I would want somebody to think about it as they heard it but would be afraid to bring it up on my own... you just want to let people come to their own conclusions. I was thinking about social music. I was gonna call it "Social Music," but then I thought that would be box office poison for three-year-olds.

But that's what I've been thinking about more and more, and I feel like that's what I have to offer, this idea that it's something we can do together and that it's fun. It's very distressing to feel that we're all here at this party here in America and there's people here who still don't feel like they're invited or welcome and it drives me crazy. And I think that it starts on a local level and it goes out from there. Music is just so inviting -- all of life's possibilities seem to be somewhere in this idea that we can get together and play music together. I was hitting it as hard as I could.

That's why I love that song "The Welcome Table," and I wouldn't have found it except that the other ideas I'd come up with for the Blind Boys [of Alabama] they'd already done -- they'd been recording since 1939 and they'd practically done every gospel song known to English-speaking man. Then when I found "The Welcome Table," I was pretty excited 'cause they hadn't done it and it seemed so timely. And it seemed to fit in with the idea of social music.

If it's not fun, then the message, regardless of how strongly I feel about it, is not gonna fly. Things have to be fun, feel like fun, pull you into that. You know, I have the greatest time making these records -- we laugh a lot, hang out in my house, the Blind Boys are in my house, the Kronos Quartet is in my house... We eat a lot of food and tell a lot of jokes...

And then maybe record a song...

Yeah, once everybody's had enough to eat.

My sense is that when you started out (on Rocket Ship Beach, for example) you were asking friends, "Do you wanna come and sing a song with me," and they said, "sure." Do you find that people are now calling you and saying, "I love what you're doing and my three-year-old daughter loves all your CDs and the next time you're recording something I'd love to be able to come down and sing with you or play with you?"

I wish it was all that easy. It does get easier every time. The people I tend to go for are always really busy. Something like the Blind Boys, for example, worked out pretty well because they asked my brother, who works at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame -- they found out that he and I were brothers. They were thinking of doing a family record, so they wanted to talk to me about it and as I was speaking to their management, I asked when they were coming to New York next in the not-so-distant future. I was able to figure out something really fast to get them right before they started their tour, and it was because they wanted to talk about the albums. That never would've happened if I hadn't gotten to a certain point with my CDs. So it's definitely easier to get people over here and I think now people now understand what it's going to sound like.

For me, I wanted the idea that Sandra Bernhard, Bob Weir, Angelique Kidjo came over to your house for dinner and decided to sing afterward -- that's the sound we're always going for with my help, in a casual but artful way. Y'know, that's not the way Deborah Harry sounds on her records, that's not the way Nick Cave sounds on his records, so it is a chance for people to be heard in a slightly different manner. I think everybody appreciates that. I'm just such a fan of all these people -- every single guest on my CDs is somebody that I'm completely in love with, so for me it's been really, really special -- I've always felt people threw themselves into it in such a great way.

Lou Reed is a really good example. You know, I thought I had a grip on his music and how he sang. He's not the most warm and friendly person when you first meet him -- I think almost anybody would say that about him. When he started singing "What A Wonderful World" [from Night Time!] and I didn't know him at all, and I got really nervous -- "he's just winging it." But by the second time around I realized, "He's a jazz singer!," and I didn't even know that. He was coming at it in such a sophisticated way... so far inside the song that he was able to go at it in another way that was beyond my comprehension. To see that unfold in front of you is really an amazing experience.

I just found out about the Bright Spaces compilation -- did you pick these recordings because they were recordings you grew to really enjoy after the birth of your daughter and you were a parent, did you pick them because you liked the songs and you were introduced to songs you now play a whole bunch through these recordings -- roughly, how did you choose them?

You know, it seemed like such a simple idea when they first ran it by me. They've been wonderful folks to be involved with -- they've helped sponsor our tours. Bright Horizons is the for-profit and Bright Spaces is the not-for-profit. I've been to those places and it's so good to see kids from homeless shelters or transitional housing actually have for the first place a place they can go and play. So it was easy to agree to throw myself into it but I thought it would be so much easier to actually do it than it was because of all the things you mentioned -- the recording, the performer, the song -- I wanted to make sure it was all three so that you could turn the CD player off, pick a handful of songs, and do 'em yourself. That's always the goal, to turn the CD player off -- it's a means to another end and that end is that you take the tunes and make them your own. But recorded music can be really inspiring.

It was important that David Jones -- he's put out a CD called Widdecombe Fair that probably more than anything got me thinking about how wild and broad family or all ages music could me. And the Jerry Garcia/David Grisman [Not For Kids Only], that was another one that really opened my mind. And the Deighton Family, of any group, that was the group that recorded with the spirit that I've always tried to capture on my CDs. So in a way I have an emotional connection to everybody on the whole CD, and it was kind of amazing to see people agree to let the songs be used, donate a track, otherwise it wouldn't have made any money. I felt great about the fact that everybody got on board, that everyone that I wanted was cool with it all.

So it was all three things on every single track -- the song, the performer, the recording itself. But those are the three -- David Jones, Jerry Garcia and David Grisman, and the Deighton Family -- that really meant a lot to me when I started doing family music and gave me such inspiration. And still do.

This was great.

Well you're doing a great job. It's really so cool to see that you're getting as much attention as you are. It's an exciting time right now, that we can start things in our houses, that we can start things in our houses that feel so personal and they can really go out to a lot of people.

And then for example, I've got a reader who really likes Justin Roberts and she's thinking, 'Why can't I get Justin to come out to my city and play a show?' So hopefully having some readers feel the same way -- why can't we do something like this -- that's exciting to me.

That was what was so great about this in the beginning. Because I've been in the music business for most of my adult life, and when I started playing rock it felt as though there wasn't a road map and once the road map became established a lot of the fun went out. For me, the real creativity comes at those times when there's no one saying, "You can't do it this way, you've got to do it that way." It's really the feeling that anything goes, you can follow your heart and your interests.

In family music, everybody's so generous with their time and their thoughts. You know, Tom Chapin took a call from me. I just called him out of the blue because I really dug him and he spent a lot of time with me on the phone and was really helpful and I thought, there's the spirit, right there. I've found that constantly. Hanging out with Justin in Chicago, having never met him, it was sort an instant bond, so that feeling of community, whether it's physical or otherwise, is alive and well with the family music crowd, so it's good to have you in it.

Thank you. I hope you get a chance to relax a little bit more before your fall because I went back and looked at the tour schedule and it was really long, so I hope you get another couple weeks of relaxation.

It's pretty unlikely, but I enjoy what I do, so that's the good news... Say "hi" to your daughter for me...

Thank you, Dan. You have a nice day.

You too.

Interview: Bill Childs (Spare the Rock, Spoil the Child)

One of my main purposes in applying for the show was to have it be an adventure with Ella... It's nice that it's taken off as it seems to have, but my goal was, and remains, to have fun with Ella.

Bill Childs' first words to me (electronically speaking) were, "I think you may be me." That comment was based on our similar musical tastes (across all ranges of music), but we soon found out that our paths, while never actually crossing, did have some eerie echoes (time spent in Minnesota and Texas... playing the violin). It should be noted that Bill and I have never been seen in the same place at the same time.

Bill's radio show/podcast Spare the Rock, Spoil the Child is a great way to hear songs from the artists we talk about here. (And then some -- if the number of artists referred to the other person could be viewed like the trade deficit, Bill is definitely the United States and I'm the rest of the world.) So I thought he'd make a great subject for our first non-musician interview here. Thanks to Bill for taking the time to answer my questions so thoughtfully.

When exactly is your anniversary?
8/13. The station went on the air on 8/7. Incidentally, the very first thing we did on the very first show was a mistake; I hit play on the wrong CD player and played a Laurie Berkner song instead of TMBG's "Dr. Worm."

How long have you been interested in kids and family music?
Ella's birth in 1999 was certainly the main thing that prodded us to find good kids' music. I remember reading some reviews of Dan Zanes's first album and buying it from Amazon. In the "other CDs you might like" category, Amazon pointed us to Justin Roberts, so we bought his first album too. (It helped that I saw and liked Justin's prior band, Pimentos for Gus, a bunch at the 400 Bar in Minneapolis.)

Over the next few years, we eventually got a bunch of other stuff (Schoolhouse Rock, Joe McDermott, Lucas Miller, various compilations, Laurie Berkner, etc.), and started seeing some of the artists play at Iota Club & Cafe in Arlington, Virginia (where we lived at the time). And we've been They Might Be Giants fans since pretty near their start in the '80s, but I don't really think of them as "kids and family music," even today.

There was little "kids' music" in my house growing up. We listened to the Tulsa, Oklahoma NPR station a lot, so I heard mostly classical music (plus Prairie Home Companion starting sometime in the late '70s, perhaps making the move to Minnesota in the '80s somewhat easier). We had a great Time-Life jazz series. And of course there was Sesame Street and Electric Company and such on the TV. But mostly it was classical, both listening to and playing (I play violin).

In around 1985, my brother sent me a tape of the Violent Femmes and Icicle Works from college, and a friend gave me a tape with the Replacements' Sorry Ma, Forgot to Take Out the Trash. Both were eye-opening (well, not so much Icicle Works).

How did you get your own radio show? (Did you have any prior radio experience?)
Not long after we moved here in 2004, I saw a flyer for a community radio station, Valley Free Radio that was aiming to launch in 2005. It looked like a fun way to meet some people in the community, do something very different from my day job (law professor), and do something special with Ella. So I filled out a show application, pitching both the kids' music show and a more general indie rock show.

When the station launched (a year ago now), there were more slots than there were active applications, so it wasn't through any magic that we got a slot for the kids' show. We did, however, start out with the rather brutal timeslot of 6 to 8 on Saturday mornings. Happily, the 8 to 10 slot opened up and we moved there, hopefully to stay.

I had a show for several years while in college at Macalester in St. Paul -- WMCN, 91.7 FM, 10 Blazing Watts of Power! -- playing local and indie stuff. I've been really interested in decent radio for a long time too, starting with KJJO, one of the first commercial "modern rock" stations (in Minneapolis). That interest grew a lot more with Rev-105, an astonishingly good commercial station (also in Minneapolis), that was bought out by Disney and changed to a metal station in the late '90s. (Thanks, Disney! Hugs!) [Rev-105 is the single best radio station I've ever known. I can't describe how great it was to listen to in its heyday. It was a college radio station with commercial radio station discipline and college radio ad sales, which is to say, very little. Which probably explains why it got bought out. But I was long gone by then. -- Ed.]

Some of the folks involved with Rev-105, after bopping around Twin Cities radio for several years, then helped found the amazing public radio station The Current. I also enjoy WOXY.com, a formerly-terrestrial station that is now internet-only and listener-supported; KEXP out of Seattle; and Radio K, the University of Minnesota's radio station. Our local AAA station is substantially better than average.

And while not radio, a friend and I owned a record store, Tremendous Imposition Records, in Minneapolis back in the early '90s. That made me realize how fun it can be to introduce people to new music. For instance, we bought direct from Mordam Records, which distributed a lot of west-coast punk labels. That meant we could sell Lookout! Records CDs for $10, less than most anyone in the Cities -- and Lookout! at the time had Green Day. We actually had Green Day in-store for what they claimed was the first time they'd ever played acoustically in front of people. They were good, even with the drumming being the wastebasket turned upside-down, and we sold a lot of their CDs. And we sponsored local shows on both KJJO and the University of Minnesota's station.

Did you plan Ella's appearances from the beginning?
Oh, yes, certainly. One of my main purposes in applying for the show was to have it be an adventure with Ella (and, if he wishes as he gets older, with Liam). And it was important to me to have a kid involved in listening, choosing, and talking about the music. It's nice that it's taken off as it seems to have, but my goal was, and remains, to have fun with Ella.

What's the most enjoyable part of doing the show?
Most of the time, it's spending time with Ella. I also love having artists on the show -- the guest DJ sets are a lot of fun for me in particular, and the in-studio performances are great too. And there is certainly something to be said for getting to hear a ton of great new music. I've been surprised (nicely) at getting to know some of the artists well too, both via e-mail and by talking in-person.

What's the least?
Some Saturdays I don't want to wake up.
Some CDs I don't want to listen to.
Sometimes Ella's in a mood. Sometimes I'm in a mood.

The station has its own challenges, as most progressive community groups do. I wholeheartedly support the goals of the station, but it has gone through substantial growing pains and some infighting and power grabs. Things seem to be settling down reasonably well in that regard, and most people seem to be focusing on the task of actually running a radio station.

What's Ella's favorite (and least favorite) part of the show?
Favorite: "That you get to rock out... you don't have to be doing much with the radio stuff [equipment]."
Least favorite: "That I have to get up early sometimes when I don't want to."

When do you plan what's going to be on the air?
About a minute before it's on the air.

Well, not exactly, but that's pretty close. The night before or the morning of the show, I pull a handful of non-kids' CDs from our home CD collection. When we get to the station, with Ella's input, I make a stack of new music I want to get to and then pull more non-new CDs than we'll need for the show, just grabbing whatever hits me, trying to mix some relatively recent music with older stuff, and trying to have a good mix of styles as well. If something has happened in the week that suggests a theme, or if the weather fits in a theme, or if it's someone's birthday, or someone's sick, or whatever, I'll try to get some of that together too. I also have a separate stack of "Are you prepared to rock?" material.

Then it's pretty much on-the-fly. Ella picks the TMBG songs for the start and end unless I have a strong desire for a particular song. Beyond that, I do a rough order of CDs, so we have something lined up a half-dozen songs in advance, but we change it around as we go -- if I think of a pair or group of songs that should go together, for instance, or if we get a request. And we often don't choose a particular song until it's going into the CD player. Since Ella does most of the cueing of CDs (and most of the engineering more generally), she often goes with a different song than I had in mind.

How do you think the show has changed over the past year?
I think we're both much more comfortable on the air and with the equipment. We have a much larger library now, which is fun but also frustrating, as it's harder to play all the great music we have. Ella is getting more discerning about music she likes and doesn't like and why. And of course we have more listeners now, which brings with it great suggestions for new artists.

There was a flurry of interest in kids' music nationally in February, March, and April. How did that affect the show?
I don't remember it having any impact. I imagine our listenership increased some, but I don't remember a big bump (though I don't have great metrics on that). The pace of CD submissions has stayed relatively stable. Our local paper is doing a kids' music feature story soon and we'll be in that, so I suppose that's probably to some extent related to the interest.

Aside from the e-mail from Flansy, what's been the coolest (or three) thing that's happened with the show?
1. We've had a great time with all the musicians who have come through the area. It was especially neat to have The Deedle Deedle Dees play an incredible show at a very cool DIY local venue (Flywheel), and we're putting together some more shows there this fall and next spring featuring some of our absolute favorite artists, including a November 18 show with Lunch Money and Uncle Rock. And the guests -- SteveSongs, Ben Rudnick, Danny Adlerman, Keith Munslow, Milkshake, and local singer Dennis Caraher -- have been revelatory at times. There's something special about an artist performing with just guitar or keyboard and vocals, with no production. Last weekend we had Asheba, ScribbleJim, and Justin Roberts call in live from Chicago during Kidzapalooza, and Asheba sang a lovely little version of "The Itsy Bitsy Spider." I like moments like that.

2. I love that we were even a small part of getting attention for artists like (but not limited to) Frances England -- new artists who deserve attention but who don't have the distribution network of some.

3. Did I mention the e-mail from John Flansburgh? It's pretty cool. Since TMBG is Ella's favorite band, that's been a huge thing for her too.

I'm swamped with CDs, and I don't think I get all that you do. How do you listen to all of them?
I don't, at least not as promptly as I'd like. I have a backlog of probably at least 50 CDs, and maybe closer to 100. I do some triage, trying to listen to stuff with more intriguing descriptions before some others, and I often listen to the most recent CD of an artist before getting around to older music. I go in waves, where if I'm working on the house or doing dishes or writing, I'll go through a dozen CDs in a day, choosing tracks for airplay. And a fair number of CDs I can make decisions about without listening to all of every song. But other days I just don't feel like listening to any kids' music and so I don't. I'd love to get the stack down to just a couple of dozen.

How often do you listen to "old favorites" (kids' division)?
We have a handful of kids' CDs burned and in our minivan that are on fairly regular rotation. Milkshake, Lunch Money, ScribbleMonster, Ben Rudnick, and some other ones. At home, it's not terribly common to have on older kids' music, except that I have burned a couple of playlists for the kids to listen to in their room -- one rocking CD, some Danny Adlerman, some lullabies, and a couple of other mixed CDs, I think.

What do you listen to when you don't listen to kids' music? Is it the "non-kids'" stuff you play on the air, or something else?
We have a pretty varied CD collection; most of the non-kids' stuff is from it, but it's not necessarily representative of what I listen to other times. I probably listen to KCMP.org more than any other single music source. (And, incidentally, their morning show (The Morning Show, natch), which came over from the classical station, is a great source for non-kids' kid-friendly music.) [I again concur -- it's quite good. - Ed.]

To give a decent sampling of the newer stuff we listen to, here's the track list from our 2005 end-of-year best-of compilation CD we give to friends and family:

Mates Of State - Goods (All in Your Head)
New Pornographers - Sing Me Spanish Techno
Of Montreal - Wraith Pinned to the Mist and Other Games
Fatboy Slim - Wonderful Night
BC Camplight - Blood and Peanut Butter
Brian Wilson - Vega-Tables
Ben Folds - Jesusland
Elvis Costello (with Lucinda Williams) - There’s a Story in Your Voice
William Shatner - Common People (featuring Joe Jackson)
Polyphonic Spree - Section 12: Hold Me Now
Ditty Bops - Ohh La La
Lunch Money - Tricycle
Dressy Bessy - Side 2
The Thermals - How We Know
Los Abandoned - Van Nuys (es Very Nice)
The Salteens - Kelly Nicoll
The Latebirds - Got A Message
Ben Kweller & Ben Folds & Ben Lee - Just Pretend
The Be Good Tanyas - The Littlest Birds
Ben Rudnick and Friends - Over the Rainbow/What a Wonderful World (live for VFR)
Ella Childs - The Magic Stone (Ella's poem from her first grade class)

(Past years' playlists are here.)

I listen to a lot of Minneapolis music (Replacements, Walt Mink, Suburbs, Arcwelder, etc.) and a fair amount of alt-country or whatever you want to call it (Gourds, Uncle Tupelo, Old 97's, etc.). Other representative groups: Soul Coughing, fIREHOSE, NoMeansNo, Pixies, Babe the Blue Ox, Michael Franti, Fountains of Wayne, Beastie Boys, Billy Bragg, Papas Fritas, Throwing Muses, and so on.

What plans do you have for the show in the upcoming year?
Gosh, I don't know. Most of the time I'm just happy if we get our act together in time to start at 8:00 and if we avoid any major technical problems. But let's see:

I'd love to get more family artists performing up here; the Eric Carle Museum (which does one big show a year with the likes of Dan Zanes and Milkshake) seems like an ideal venue for bigger names, while Flywheel has been great as well. I wish the people who book the main venues in town would try kids' stuff, but so far I haven't had any luck.

I hope that the people interested in good kids' music (like you and other bloggers) keep it up and continue to support lesser-known artists as well as the big names. Along those lines, though it's not strictly part of the show, I'm going to be the music columnist for Minnesota Parent magazine starting in September, and hope to roll the column out to some other outlets as well. I plan to feature less-prominent artists a good amount in the column.

I'd like to do a better job of finding more non-kids' music to play on the show, especially from more diverse genres.

I'm very excited to hear more guest DJ sets and fill-in shows. At the end of this month, we'll have Monty Harper filling in for a whole show, and I think Frances England's guest spot is on its way here now. By the time this goes on your site, we will have already played Amy Davis's, and hopefully you'll get one together soon too. I find various folks' picks to be fascinating, and often to introduce me to new artists or ideas. I really enjoyed the ScribbleMonster show and The Quiet Ones' Andy was just amazing (plus, that's how Flansburgh found us).

*****

Thanks again to Bill for taking the time to answer my questions. (And to you, the reader, for making it all this way!)

Interview: Charity Kahn (Charity and the JAMband)

Our kids are a huge part of everything we do with the band. We took all the JAMband kids on tour (9 total) with us down to LA and they were exposed to all the pieces of what it means to have a band. There’s a Behind the Music series waiting to happen here. I’ll say no more.

Charity Kahn, founder and leader of the Bay Area-based funk/soul/whatever kids' group Charity and the JAMband, is a mother, musician, and mathematician. Or, at least, she has a mathematics degree. Charity took the time recently to answer a few questions of mine with her typical enthusiasm. Read on to find out about obsession with a certain '80s hair-metal band, her band's newest song, and the relationship of math to her music.

What music did you listen to growing up?
My folks are classically trained, and ran a piano studio forever. They also directed choirs, musicals, taught music in schools, and my dad’s been a church organist since he was 13. So the early years were filled with classical and sacred music and opera, a little jazz, show tunes, and my mom’s favorite, Johnny Mathis. And, of course, Free to Be, You and Me, John Denver and the Muppets, and all of Hap Palmer’s stuff. Next came the Carpenters, Chicago, the Jackson 5, Manhattan Transfer, until I finally discovered classic rock’n’roll. Led Zeppelin took me over for a few years (hasn’t let go, actually). And living in a small Midwestern town water skiing on summer lakes and partying in the woods and cornfields, I also had a Def Leppard obsession (still do, actually). The Grateful Dead came into the picture some time during teen-age hood. I was also performing a lot of classical, jazz, and swing music at the time (vocal and ensemble), so I loved listening to that stuff, too.

Was kids' music something you went into deliberately, or was it something you sort of stumbled into? ("Stumbled into" not meant pejoratively...)
I guess it was more of a stumble, and then a landing. It felt more cosmic than deliberate. As soon as my first son was born, I began writing songs for him, about him, inspired by him. When he was 18 months old, I could no longer deal with the corporate world, and I quit my software engineering job and founded a parent/child music and movement program I called JAM, using the children’s songs I’d come up with over the last year-and-a-half as raw material. I recorded my first children’s CD (JAM: Music for Movement with Children) for those families in 2002, sending it off to the manufacturer for pressing three days before my second son was born.

By the time my kids were 5 and 2, I was ready with another record (Peanut Butter and JAM, 2004) and had begun performing family concerts both solo and with the JAMband. Our third release, Rock Your Socks Off, came out this February (2006) [ed: read the review here], and the next one’s cookin’ in the oven as we speak. We just performed the first new song from it ("Get Your Booty Outta Bed!") at our last show. Thanks to my oldest son, Jasper, for running into the bedroom early one recent morning, chanting that phrase over and over at the top of his lungs. That’s usually how JAM songs are born. And motherhood and my work in music are inseparable for me on a million levels.

Which songs are your favorites to play? Which songs draw the most response in concert?
Because of our instrumentation (drummer, percussionist, 2 guitars, bass, piano, 3 singers), we can really rock out. So if had to pick favorites, I’d choose the funkiest ones with the heaviest grooves: "Peanut Butter and JAM," "We Like Funky," "Happy Birthday Baby," "Partner Dance." Since every one of our songs has accompanying choreography, folks are dancing throughout the show, so the response is consistently high. We usually have a Mush Pot ™ up front of 50 or so kids completely focused, following every move. "Peanut Butter and JAM" and "Happy Fluffy" are examples of songs that get folks particularly amped (lots of jumping, shaking, and “laughing so hard you fall to the ground”).

Do you write songs specifically with movement in mind, or is it just a happy byproduct of the types of songs you write?
Both. The choreography for "Super Hero" came totally after the fact, because the lyrics of the song just wrote themselves and I had no idea at the time what the dance would be. "Towel Tango" is an example of the other method. I wanted the lyrics to invite kids to follow along with a towel or a scarf, and wrote the lyrics to encourage exactly that kind of movement. And, of course, there’s the tango instruction part: slow, slow, quick, quick, switch!

Which is easier for you to write -- lyrics or music?
It all just seems to miraculously flow out. Neither is hard. Both are exceedingly fun.

How do you incorporate music into your day-to-day life with your kids?
We listen to our iPod a lot. The kids have their own playlist, which is constantly growing and morphing. And we just shuffle the whole collection, too, to expose them to tons of stuff. And we dance around all the time. Make up crazy songs. Shake our booties. Make our puppets dance. Do silly shows in the foyer after dinner. Have run around time in the living room after bath and before bed with live music or CDs. Charlie (my husband and bass player) is amazing at coming up with silly songs in the moment and things can get pretty hysterical around here. I’m starting to teach my oldest son piano, but we’re taking it slow and treating it more like piano play for now (I strive to under-program my kids). We drum. On everything. Our kids are a huge part of everything we do with the band. We took all the JAMband kids on tour (9 total) with us down to LA and they were exposed to all the pieces of what it means to have a band. There’s a Behind the Music series waiting to happen here. I’ll say no more.

You've also written a book on the relationship between math and music -- aside from the more obvious relationships (e.g., reducing a plucked string's length in half increases the pitch by an octave), what are some interesting relationships? Is that relationship between math and music something you consciously think about when writing or playing songs?

People who know me solely as a musician tend to be surprised when they find out my degree is in Mathematics, and that my careers up until now have been in that arena. The assumption that music is a right-brain activity, and math is a left-brain activity, and never the twain shall meet, seems to be alive and well.

In my experience, however, both pursuits require a full-brain approach. Solving a difficult math problem requires a combination of left-brain analytical skills and a right-brain artistic approach. Playing or writing a symphony requires the same. Creativity in general requires the full brain, and applying and working with math takes as much creativity as music in many ways, although it’s not traditionally considered an artistic discipline. It’s no surprise that many famous mathematicians and physicists are also talented in music, and vice versa.

When it comes to creating music, I do have a few songs that introduce mathematical concepts with the lyrics, like counting by 5’s and other multiples ("Gimme 5 Gimme 10," "Counting Tricks," "Gimme 10 Gimme 5") and even infinity and zero ("Happy Birthday Baby"). I don’t specifically or consciously apply math when I’m composing a melody, or working out the structure of a song, or performing a song. But there is a huge amount of math going on behind the scenes, and I’m sure my love and knowledge of math plays into my songwriting and vocalizing in a pretty big way.

For starters, counting out a rhythm is mathematical. Time signatures and note values basically mirror the concept of fractions, a measure of music being a unit divided into its component parts by notes and rests. The physics of sound (pitch, frequency, harmony, resonance, dissonance) relies on mathematics for its formulas and computations. A melody can display geometry, inversions, and symmetry…or asymmetry for that matter. Compositional structure is pattern-based and mathematical by nature. I could go on and on; check out Math and Music: Harmonious Connections for more detail.

Math and music: food for the mind, food for the body, food for the soul ;-)

Besides your own music, what other musicians do your kids listen to?
Their absolute favorite song right now (and one of mine ;-) is "Lemonade," by Protein. Other faves: The Beatles, The Who, Dan Zanes, Aretha, The Killers, The Cars, Ella Jenkins, The Ramones, Jerry Garcia and David Grisman, Spearhead, Justin Roberts, sacred choral music, The Police, Fatboy Slim, Moby, Manu Chao, and anything funky, anything with a heavy groove and a strong beat.

What's next for you and the band?
We’re in the planning stages for a DVD. Starting the next record. Booking shows. Would love to start touring more (NW, East Coast, Europe…why not?) In general, more CDs, more shows, more tours, more of this same celebration of life we are experiencing by sharing our music, our love, and our time with families. It’s simply too good, too fun, and too amazing not to do as much as possible of it. Rocking socks off families is the best job I’ve ever had.

Interview: Justin Roberts

The one thing I discovered from teaching preschool is you shouldn't have a preconceived notion of what kids will respond to. So I don't try to guess. -- Justin Roberts

With three CD releases in the past six months (the highly acclaimed Meltdown! and two "Why Not Sea Monsters?" scripture-related CDs with collaborator Liam Davis) and a very active 2006 touring schedule, Justin Roberts has been a very busy man as of late. Still, Justin must have exemplary time-management skills as he provided thoughtful responses to the questions below. Read on to find out which characters in Roberts' songs have echoes of Justin himself, who he's trying to please when writing songs, and what rocking out with kids is more fun than.

And thanks again to Justin for the interview.

******************

When did you realize that you were going to make making kids' music your career?
I put out Great Big Sun in 1997 right as I was entering graduate school at the University of Chicago. I had no intention at that time of becoming a kids music performer. However, after finishing my masters in religious studies, I decided rocking out with kids was a lot more fun than studying Sanskrit. I stand by that statement today.

How much of your music is based on memories from your own childhood compared to watching kids as an adult?
I take a lot of inspiration from my own childhood, little memories and events that I use as building blocks. But sometimes I just make it all up. I think when I'm writing a song I try to get into the characters head and tell his or her story. In the same way that I would when writing a song for adults. So, while I might be inspired by the kids in my neighborhood cranking out chalk art, the character in the song develops as the story comes out.

On Meltdown! was "Cartwheels & Somersaults" based on personal experience, or was that a generalized experience?
I wrote that song for my sister (who is nine years younger than me). However, in the song it sounds like it is told from the prospective of an only child who is much closer in age. I still remember how amazing it was the day I came home from school and met my sister. Of course, several days later I was teasing her just like a big brother should.

Were you anything like the impish kid that seems to populate so many of your songs ("My Brother Did It," "Meltdown," "One Little Cookie")?
I was a pretty well behaved kid. If I did anything wrong, it was on the sly. My brother was a little more confrontational. But most of the stuff from the songs is made up. If anything, "My Brother Did It" is a role reversal since I was the younger one getting blamed for everything. I love how kids are sort of amoral but they have a sense of right and wrong at the same time. They are always testing boundaries. Which is funny to me.

Which is harder for you to write -- music or lyrics? Why?
I write my music and lyrics at the same time. Sometimes I have to fill in words and verses here and there but it is always created to the melody. I think that is often how the stories find their way out. In general, songwriting is a complete mystery to me and can be quite stressful (it's not a coincidence my CD is called Meltdown!) as I spend months feeling like I can't write a good song. Then some of my favorite stuff (like "Cartwheels") just pops out.

How easy is it for you to write music that kids will relate to, but that parents might enjoy, too? Do you think you've improved your ability to do so over the years?
I try not to think too much about my audience when I write. I try to write a melody I would want to hear as an adult and sometimes I will laugh when a lyric comes out or get a emotional if the song is sad. I never know what kids are going to think of the songs. I don't really test market them too much. I'm more sure adults will enjoy the songs when I complete them than kids.

I don't know that I've necessarily gotten better at reaching both audiences. I'm just always trying to push myself to make a better record than the last one. But there are still those out there who love the simplicity of Great Big Sun. When Liam and I are in the studio together, we just try to make a record that we would want to listen to. The one thing I discovered from teaching preschool is you shouldn't have a preconceived notion of what kids will respond to. So I don't try to guess.

How did you get involved in writing the "Why Not Sea Monsters" albums? Were you trying to do something different from your "regular" kids' albums?
Augsburg Fortress Publishers approached me several years ago to write two songs based on bible verses for their Sunday School curriculum. Having a background in philosophy and religious studies made it a fun little side project. I would write the songs and Liam would record and arrange them with me. One song led to another and soon we had about 16 tracks that were all originally commissioned by AFP. So, I wrote six more songs and covered a couple songs by Craig Wright (friend and playwright/television writer) to fill out the two records. My goal on these records was to try to write Bible songs that would not be preachy but would still bring out the strange beauty of these stories.

What's next for you and Meltdown!?
I've been travelling since March promoting the new CD and we have tons of summer dates set up too. We also have some new videos that we are very excited about which should be airing on Noggin soon.