Interview: Barry Louis Polisar

Barry Louis Polisar is simultaneously children's music best kept secret and one of the most visible (or at least audible) artist for the mainstream. A secret in that you don't necessarily hear a lot about him within the kids music world compared to other, more active artists, but at the same time, placement of "All I Want Is You" in the movie Juno and in a new Honda ad have given Polisar a reach into popular culture that exceeds just about any independent family musician.

In the interview below, Polisar talks at length about his influences, his views on the current kids music scene and his role in it, and where his creative energies are now.

What are your musical memories from childhood?
My main influences were Johnny Cash and Alvin and the Chipmunks. I have a recording on my website of me singing Cash's "Ring of Fire" when I was about seven years old and it was always a favorite song. Alvin and the Chipmunks certainly gave voice to the naughty, rebellious side of childhood back in the late fifties -- and the very first flier advertising my songs included the line "picking up where Alvin and the Chipmunks left off." I also liked the witty lyrics and humor in Roger Miller's songs which were popular in the early sixties and another favorite was the Australian singer Rolf Harris who had a hit with "Tie Me Kangaroo Down Sport." To this day I can sing every line of every song from his album and many of those songs would be considered wildly inappropriate now by some parents.

I've read you first started writing songs at school, but when did you seriously begin to write music for kids?
I began my career while I was in college. I was 21 years old in 1975 -- not too far removed from being a kid myself. I went to the University of Maryland and had planned on being a teacher. I had bought a guitar and was teaching myself how to play when a teacher saw me with it, and asked if I would entertain the kids at the school where she was teaching. It was at that school that I overheard another teacher yelling at her students, copied down her tirade and wrote my song "I've Got a Teacher, She's So Mean."

Because I was planning on being a teacher myself, word spread that I had written this song and the next thing I knew teachers from other schools were calling me asking me to sing that song in their schools. I ended up putting myself through college singing in the schools and after a year of concerts at schools and libraries, I had made enough to finance my first album. So even though I was still in college, I was writing and performing all the time. Sesame Street had heard about my songs -- by then I had recorded a second album -- and they called me to New York to talk about writing songs for a project they were working on; Big Bird recorded my song "I've Got A Dog and My Dog's Name is Cat."

About how many songs have you written/published, anyway?
I've never stopped to count. I think about 130-140 songs that have been published on a dozen albums and lots more that I never recorded. I'm a harsh critic of my own work and want my songs to have the right combination of humor, irony, truth and emotion.

I've had many children's artists tell me they decided to begin their career after discovering my albums or hearing my songs and I am settling into the role of party elder, even though I still tour actively and give concerts. It's too much fun to stop.

When did you first realize you could make an entire career out of writing for kids?
Really, right from the start. The response to my songs was enthusiastic from the very beginning. At every concert I gave, people wanted to know who wrote the songs I sang. Hearing that all the time made me realize that I should take any money I made from my concerts and record all my songs on an album. This was in 1975 when record labels ruled the music industry. I always had an independent streak--and decided to make my own album and sell it as a "people before profit" venture.

I remember the first time I tried to get car insurance, the insurance agent asked me what I did for a living and I told him I wrote and sang songs for kids. He said, "But what do you really do for a job?" I knew I had made it when my 80-year old aunt finally stopped saying, "That's nice, Barry, but what are you going to do for a real job?"

The kids in your songs... well, they're not exactly mean, but they're definitely not polite all the time. One of those early albums was even subtitled "and other songs for rebellious children." Was that a reaction to anything in particular, or was it something that you just felt drawn to or were experiencing yourself?
I would say the kids I wrote about were real. At times impolite and maybe some of the songs I wrote were not politically correct but they represented the way kids were -- not the way parents wanted them to be. We had just come out of a pretty political time and I embraced a healthy dose of rebelliousness and irony in my songs and those qualities still appeal to kids now. I would also argue that questioning is inherently a positive value.

In some ways the current generation of parents is much more conservative than the generation of the fifties; they want to make sure that the songs their kids are exposed to carry a message and communicate a specific agenda. I've had parents tell me I should write songs that teach children good manners, or teach children to respect the environment--or teach children about peace and justice. They want pamphlets, not poetry. I prefer to write and sing for kids and smart adults who understand the irony and humor of everyday life and can laugh at themselves. There are lessons everywhere; I'd rather let people connect their own dots.

My writing style is closer to writers like Hilaire Belloc, Jim Copp and Shel Silverstein. They have all written cautionary tales and humorous odes to misbehavior because they realized that kids are much smarter than some of us think they are.

How is the kids music scene now better than when you were releasing lots of albums in the 70s and 80s? How is it worse?
The new way of recording and posting a song makes things much more democratic -- anyone can do it now -- but there are no longer any filters so there are times when it feels like everyone with an instrument feels like they can make a recording for kids; subsequently, the quality is all over the map. I think that some of the songs aren't as smart as they used to be. I see a trend where some artists just decide to write about something--and some of those songs sound as if they locked themselves in a room until they emerged with a song on a given topic. Often times, what carries the songs are the visuals in a video -- and that was never an option when I began writing. My songs had to communicate a story and create a picture.

There are some really great artists and performers now but it's harder for them to emerge from the larger pack. The blogging world is an interesting phenomenon too and many bloggers work off the same lists of favorite artists, despite pledging fidelity to independence.

While you've had your songs out there quite a bit (Juno, the tribute album, etc.), you haven't released an album of new material in quite some time [1999's A Little Different?]. Is there a particular reason for that? Has writing books taken the place of writing songs, creatively?
I'm still writing all the time and I have the luxury of being able to write about anything I want to write about -- in any discipline. I don't want to turn out more songs just for the sake of putting out a new album and a lot of songs I hear seem like they are written to have product to sell. I have to be pulled to a subject and to feel that what I have created -- in the words of Robert Frost -- are written for heaven and the future's sake.

I have been concentrating on books lately. In addition to my story books, I've written and adapted a Passover Haggadah for adults, a chapter book for older kids on the Amistad slave rebellion, and lots of poetry books for kids. A Little Different was my last album of new songs, but in 2005 I released a double album of songs called Old Enough to Know Better: The Worst of Barry Louis Polisar. As my daughter was going off to college, she discovered a trove of songs she hadn't heard before. These were songs I considered flawed and she challenged me to take my worst songs and turn them into new pieces... so even though the titles and some lyrics were original, I basically edited and re-wrote forty new songs. In fact, I joked that this was a double album because I had written so many bad songs.

Many of the songs on this double album are totally different from the originals and only share a common title. I think that was some of my best work, but the album was largely ignored in the press and in the blogging world. Ironically, it's harder for me to get my albums reviewed now -- perhaps because there are so many children's releases and many independent artists have hired press agents and PR people -- and I have not.

I have written a lot of songs about my family, my kids, school, parents, teachers... and for me to write something new, I'd want to be able to really say something that I have not said before... it's actually harder for me to come up with songs that I think are fresh and original -- and don't sound like ideas I have mined before. My own kids are now in their mid-twenties and I am in my mid fifties, so the original voice I wrote with -- that rebellious kid -- does not ring true for me anymore.

Do you feel like you've finally reached some sort of broad level of popularity and cultural acceptance? Or did you always feel that way?... Neither of which is relevant to whether or not you cared.
I think every artist hopes to create things that resonate with people and I have known for years that my songs did that. The We're Not Kidding! tribute album really confirmed that for me -- but I have been getting emails and letters from adults for many years now, expressing how my songs touched their lives in such a profound way when they were younger. Of course Juno -- and now the Honda ad -- have brought my work to a whole new level. I've sold about 350,000 albums and books as an independent artist. The Juno soundtrack sold 600,000 copies in 4 months and sold over a million copies a few months later. I could never do that as an independent artist.

Having my song in Juno gave me a lot of street credibility. I've always felt like an outsider, doing my thing under the radar. I think it's hard to be a satirist and not ruffle feathers and I've frankly been amazed that I've sustained a healthy career for over 35 years. The folk community didn't think of me as a folk artist, even though that was the tradition I was writing, singing and recording in -- and the children's music movement often found me too irreverent and maybe even a little edgy -- though I never thought of myself that way. My songs often have an ironic side to them and they are meant to be funny but the children's music movement has been very earnest at times. I was an independent voice for kids music before there was a movement and I like that the children's music field has expanded beyond the traditional boundaries.

Do you have a favorite Juno-related moment -- something that happened as a result of that song placement?
Well, the way that whole thing came about was nothing short of cosmic. I wouldn't have even had my older albums on iTunes for the director of Juno to discover, if it wasn't for the fact that the owner and founder of CDBaby was a fan of my music. Before he founded his music company, he had been singing and performing my songs for years and he offered to put my whole catalog on line as a "thank you" for all those years of playing my songs in public. By doing that, all my songs went to iTunes and that's when Jason Reitman, the director of Juno, stumbled onto "All I Want is You." Jason was looking for another song with a similar title and typed in my song title by mistake.

Nothing beats the emails I've gotten from adults writing about what it was like to be in a dark movie theatre and suddenly hear my voice again; many fans from the old days had taped my albums or gotten them from the library -- the original file sharing -- and knew my voice and my songs but could never remember my name. Suddenly, I was singing to them again.

What's really weird for me is how this song -- which was recorded as "filler" on my second album in 1977 and sat un-noticed for thirty years -- speaks to people. There are hundreds of versions of college-aged kids singing my song in their dorm rooms on YouTube. I still get about 4-5 notices a month from people who have used my song in their weddings. I don’t make anything from these uses but it's an amazing feeling to be able to write a song that resonates with people like that.

There wasn't a lot of money involved in the song placement in the film but it was providential for me and has led to my songs traveling all around the world. I've had a lot of songs used on TV shows and in commercials in Australia, Ireland, England, Europe, Mexico, and so on.

I never pitched my songs -- and still don't -- but the licensing requests have really tripled since Juno. I just got a request for two other songs I wrote to be in two new films coming out later this year.

What's next up for you?
The tribute album that Aaron Cohen produced touched my soul in a really profound way. Juno brought fame and mainstream notoriety but having my songs recorded by other artists -- most of whom had my albums as kids growing up -- is something that is nothing short of amazing to me. Aaron has been talking about doing a dvd of the songs with animation and there's even talk about his producing another volume of songs. Right now, I just want to savor the joys that the first two discs have produced. I think the song covers these artists recorded are fun, engaging and wildly creative. Makes me want to cash in my chips and ride off into the sunset.

I'm still singing in the schools and libraries -- I don't get too many high profile shows in performing arts centers, festivals or theaters -- perhaps because I've never had an agent and don't solicit work and I'm better known to teachers and librarians who appreciate the literary traditions my work is rooted in. I've got a new book of poems that is almost finished and a couple other book ideas in the works. It will be interesting to see what happens when these other songs appear in these upcoming films -- and if people will even make the connection that they are my songs.

I still get ideas for songs from time to time and have been exploring the idea of an album where I answer other people's songs. I've done that a bit on past albums. One of my favorite books is A Book of Answers by the Australian poet A. D. Hope. He wrote a series of poems responding to famous poems and it's a real hoot.

I never expected to have a career that would span 35 years. Maybe my kids will have children one day and I'll have a whole new view of childhood to explore. Meanwhile, I'm happy and content doing what I've been doing. Finding contentment in your own world is a worthy thing.

Photos by Michael G. Stewart

Interview: Brian Vander Ark & Donny Brown (The Verve Pipe)

The Verve Pipe made their name the first time riding the wave of alternative rock in the early-to-mid 1990s. Now they are making their name as enthusiastic performers of music for families. At the 2010 Austin City Limits Music Festival I chatted with guitarist Brian Vander Ark and drummer Donny Brown (that's them at top middle and top left), the two guys that have been in the band since the very beginning, talking station wagon music, upcoming plans, and differences between name-brand and generic cereal.

What are your earliest musical memories growing up?
Brian: Back seat of a station wagon with five kids, two parents, and Neil Diamond's "Song Sung Blue." When that song came on, it was the first time I paid attention to melody and singing along. It was... 1971?

It's a great song...
It is a great song.

And you?
Donny: I remember being in the car... I come from a family with seven kids. So we'd be in the station wagon where the last seat faced out toward the window. They wouldn't allow that now. And my ear was right next to the speaker on the right-hand side. And I remember "See You in September" from the Happenings... do you know that tune?

I don't, actually.
[Sings a bit of the song.]. It's a very much a Four Seasons ripoff.

I can hear that.
It's exactly like the Four Seasons without Frankie Valli, but from a band called the Happenings.

So you had a big career in the '90s and into the 21st century... You wrote a kids song for a compilation - was that the first attempt you made at writing songs for families, or had you written songs even if they were for your own...
Brian: No, that was it...

What was it about that song that made you think you'd want to do more of this?
Brian: Well, the first song we wrote was "Complimentary Love" and after that, well, I'd written a song called "Worrisome One" that wasn't really a kids song, but I changed some lyrics and made it more about a kid. And that was where I was really conscious of what I was doing at that point, writing kids' music. Then "Suppertime" came out, which is just silly lyrics and fun. "When One Became Two" was a little more serious.

Was doing the kids' album something where you'd seen the success of other bands that had done work for adults then work for kids, or was it more wanting to stretch songwriting skills in a slightly different area just to see how it went.
We didn't even really think about making a kids' record, it was more, "Can we do this?" and it'd be fun to get the band back together to make an album. Make it a kids' album and have fun with it.

The album is a lot of fun - was it more fun to make this album than it might have been to make your previous ones?
Donny: Yeah, it was more fun making this album than any album.

Was that just because the mood was more light-hearted or because people were just in a different place?
I think the songs dictated it in a lot of ways, but it also to do with us being older and being in a different place.

Brian: Also, with every other album we've made, we have a budget and we go somewhere for a couple months, and you're stuck there in unfamiliar surroundings. This wasn't like that. We made it in Michigan, near our homes, and Donny spent a lot of time in the studio basement with different musicians, in and out, playing different parts. It was really a much more open atmosphere.

As I was thinking of questions and watching your live show, I realized there was something I needed to know, and I talked a little bit with Gwyneth [Butera] after your set... where did you come up with the idea of actually putting the cereal in your guitar?
[Laughs.]. I honestly don't remember. We were just talking about that the other day.

Donny: I think we were talking about when we finished that song, played it for people, people were just sort astounded that we'd written this song about breakfast cereal as...

It's so over the top.
Donny: Exactly. It has this big ending. I can't remember where we were, but we were backstage at a gig and we were talking about it, and Brian said, "It makes me feel like I'm on-stage, singing for the Tony Awards and the end I'm going to spread my arms really wide and this cereal is going to rain down on me." And I said something about how we need to make a video where at the end a dumptruck just pours it all out on you, and Brian got a big smile on his face. Then he said, "What if at the end I just had this guitar full of cereal.

So what is your cereal of choice?
Brian: Fruity Pebbls. It's hard to find at gas stations -- you have to go to the more high-end places. It's very easy to find the generic fruit loops, not the real ones, the generic ones, but they're heavier, sharper. They'll poke you in the eye.

I'm impressed that you have a professional opinion on the merits of different cereals.
Donny: We've tried different brands and there were a couple of gigs where Brian was just shaking the guitar and you were thinkin', "come on out!" It doesn't work well with oatmeal.

[Laughs] Any venues get mad at you after the fact?
Donny: Oh yeah. We played a beautiful venue in the northeast -- it was really gorgeous -- and at the end of the set, the front of house manager, the sound guy, was a nice guy, we spent the whole day talking about music. And at the end of the kids' set, he came up to me and said, "You got cereal all over my stage." And I thought he was kinda joking because of this friendship I thought we had struck up, and, no, he wasn't joking at all. Very upset.

So it's definitely more of an asking for forgiveness than an asking for permission sort of thing.
Both: Yes.
Donny: Haven't kids figured that one out yet?

Shhhhh!... You've been able to fit in the family shows between the shows for adults, that's worked well for guys?
Brian: The kids songs go over well with the adults at the adult shows.
Donny: We just played a rock show in Battle Creek, Michigan. Battle Creek is the home of Kellogg's -- we had a guitar stuffed with Fruit Loops, but we got a rousing reaction from them.
Brian: We got chastised for stopping 6 minutes early, 'cuz we stopped to sweep.

You obviously had a lot of success with this album, so what's next?
Donny: Well, we just played Lollapalooza, and Brian and I sat down, found out what he's been working on, what I've been working on. I throw ideas at him for lyrics and he throws ideas at me for chord changes. And we've got maybe four or five of what we'd consider to be strong kids' songs.

We're light-hearted, but we're very serious about what we do musically. We don't want to make a kids' record that's just [scats in a very poor and dorky way]. We don't want to do that. We want to do something that has legs for us, that we can play and we can always enjoy. I personally feel we've set our own bar at a nice height and because of that, we want to see if the ideas blossom. We have five ideas for that.

We also have a bunch of demos for a rock and roll record. One idea was to book a place in Michigan where we've played before and do a few nights there, a few shows there, and record a live record. We've got a lot kids listening to our kids stuff -- we want to turn people on to our other stuff. I think it all really works well together when we play live.

Interview: Jack Forman & Daron Henry (Recess Monkey)

If it's spring, it must be the runup to a new Recess Monkey album. Like clockwork, the Seattle trio turns out a new album each year, and on June 21st their latest album, FLYING!, hits the shelves (or servers, if you're a digital family). I had a chance to chat with bassist Jack Forman and drummer Daron Henry recently about a whole host of Recess Monkey-related stuff, including why a superhero-themed album, bringing in a producer, and Mayor Monkey's continued empire-building.

Zooglobble: You have a ton of different things going on -- do you have more ideas than time to implement them?
Jack Forman: Definitely. In the past year or so, we've had to prioritize. We'll still do anything, but we're OK turning down the $200 gig.

Daron Henry: We've met a lot of others who've inspired us. We've gotten a creative spark that we didn't have a year ago.

Jack: In business, they call it scope creep.

So what is your mission?
Jack: Hm. We haven't written it out, but it's definitely kid-centric. We're family-focused, but the energy comes from the kids in the audience or class. A 6- or 7-year-old hears a knock-knock joke for the first time, that's what we're about. We've written jingles, like for cellphones. but it has nothing to do with the band.

Daron: I believe in the kid focus, in being joyous. Life is hard, but there's joy too. We hope kids aren't passive consumers all the time, but can also create. The best part is when a kid tells us they're taking drum lessons or brings a uke to a show. That's awesome to me.

Jack: We're gonna work today on a video for "Sidekick" featuring Mayor Monkey in a Barbie Corvette. The DIY thing is key to what we do even with pro tools.
Why superheroes on this latest album?
Jack: There are three or four themes that never go away. Star Wars, monsters, animals, and superheroes. I teach kindergarten/pre-K, one year there was a kid who dressed up as a different superhero everyday. One day he came as "Apache Chief." He started inventing his own superheroes. He even did his school picture in costume.

We talked about superheroes with Tor [Hyams, producer of the new album], and he said he had a crocheted superhero costume. What was his superhero name?

Daron: "Super-Tor," I think.

Jack: [Laughs.] Yeah. Anyway, we can't do Star Wars because of --

Daron: George Lucas... But just this past year, kids had brought their stuffies to camp, tossing them from bunk to bunk, which is how our idea for "Super Stuffies" came about. Like jumping from couch to couch.

Where do you draw your inspiration? Has that changed over time and as a couple of you have become parents?
Jack: That's changed as we've changed. When Drew wrote the first album,That album, by the way, we're letting go out of print.

Hello, eBay!
Jack: We've already seen people charge $30 for it, and I think, "what are they smoking?" But the album was based very specifically on his preschool class. We can't separate it out, but we're much more the third-person fly on the wall. We've each found different ways to bring in our other experiences. Drew's written songs about the sibling bond inspired by the birth of his second daughter. "Flying (Reprise)" on the new album was inspired by the birth of my son, Oscar. It's not in stasis.

Daron: I should say here that Jack and I are lucky to have Drew as a songwriter bring these inspirations together -- there are some many layers in the songs.

Jack: And it totally drives him crazy that the old songs... he wants to revisit old songs. He's also really good at writing from the perspective of an object.

You have a lot of new folks helping out on this new album... what was that like when you've been self-contained in the past?
Daron: Well, as for other artists, we've been doing that since Aminal House. As we kept making more albums (through a collaborative process), as we met more people we've been bringing in more people.

Jack: It's like a scrapbook of people. Molly Ledford [from Lunch Money] is a good example. We were big fans before. Molly, Jay [Barry], and I had a conversation on the floor at Littlefield (at Kindiefest). It's organic, can't make it happen. The change is in the kindie world.

As for Tor, it was like bringing in Billy Preston, a different energy. As a quartet playing live, it was so much fun, a collaborative give and take, so inspiring. As for production, he has such a better ear for production [than mine], it was freeing not to have to worry about it. He could make great suggestions. We actually spent the least time in the studio of our albums, more time songwriting. That was really a surprise to us.

Daron: We'd say, "this sounds like..." and he'd sit down at a piano and play it. It was like Wikipedia.

Jack: Like Rain Man -- "Samba, samba sounds like..." We brought in Chris Ballew, who was holed up in my basement by the furnace working out harmonica solos. For "Sidekick" we thought about a George Thorogood sound, but Tor brought in some instruments we hadn't thought about.

What's next for the band?
Jack: Some traveling this spring. We're going to Kindiefest and playing a couple shows in New York. We're super-excited for Kindiefest -- it's a family we didn't know we had. And super-excited to hear Kenny Curtis. We'll be working on videos, too.

Daron: We're also doing a show at the Moore Theatre in Seattle with Johnny Bregar. Not a lot of kindie artists play there.

Jack: It's where Pearl Jam filmed the "Evenflow" video. Big rock shows play there -- last time I was there I saw Aimee Mann...

And Mayor Monkey has a new talk show?
Jack: Oh, yes, MayMo thinks he has all the answers, a stuffed Dr. Phil.

Daron: His degree's from a community college.

Jack: Distance learning. He finally got a question, he's going to answer "why aren't reindeer called snow deer?"

Daron: I think it's just an attempt to get friends on Facebook, but that's cynical, right?

Jack: Yes. I woke up at 2 o'clock one night this week to find him building his set for the show.

Daron: But we can't quit our contract.

It's for seven albums, right?

Daron: 77.

Photo credits: Kevin Fry

Interview: Elizabeth Mitchell

I suppose the fact that it's taken me more than six months to post an interview with Elizabeth Mitchell is an indication of just how much is going on in the family music world. Luckily, like Mitchell's music, most of the information herein is timeless.

I conducted this interview backstage at the 2010 ACL Festival, where Mitchell performed with her band (including her husband, Daniel Littleton, and daughter Storey). Backstage, where we were both waiting for Frances England to perform, and over the happy music-making noises of kids at the drum circle, Mitchell and I chatted about early musical memories (think classic rock, not nursery rhymes), the jadedness of adult rock show audiences, and how she chooses which songs to sing. Also, she gives us a sneak peek into a couple of her forthcoming albums.

Zooglobble: What are your earliest musical memories?
Elizabeth Mitchell: I guess singing to myself a lot. To myself, by myself, along with the clock radio, or not.

Did you make up songs?
I think I did, I think I was just always singing. We listened to a lot of music in my home -- there wasn't a lot of playing music. I studied piano, but nobody really played. It was the '70s, so my mom loved Simon and Garfunkel, James Taylor, Carole King. And then there were also great singers like Ella Fitzgerald -- that's my mom's favorite singer, so we listened to her a lot. And my parents both also loved classic Broadway musicals such as My Fair Lady and West Side Story, so we listened to that. And I would sing along with all of it. Even A Chorus Line, which has some very questionable lyrics in those songs, and I would sing along having no idea what I was singing along with.

Also, the Allman Brothers' "Ramblin' Man." I loved that song. It was one of my favorite songs as kid. I had no idea what a "ramblin' man" was, though when I think about it, looking back, I can remember the first time I was in a motel room, by a highway, and I heard the sounds of cars and trucks going by at night. So I think there was something about "Ramblin' Man" that was resonating with me even though I had no idea what the song was about.

It's a great melodic line, though.
It's great. It's a great song. I love the Allman Brothers. We actually did a recording of the Allman Brothers song "Blue Sky" recently. I'm a sucker for '70s classic rock, I love classic rock.

You've talked before about how much like the Ruth Crawford Seeger book [American Folksongs for Children, others] -- so you didn't listen to that as a kid?
Oh, no, no. That wasn't part of my children. That was an adult experience for me. I didn't grow up with a folk tradition as part of my family life. It was something I discovered as an adult, but it was something that happened the same time that I started teaching, so they were both huge light-bulb moments. It was really magic that they happened at the same time, because they really created this path that I'm on now.

So when did you started teaching music and singing in preschool?
That was 1993. I fell into a job. I was playing kinda pop music, and I was not inspired. I was not excited about "let's get a record deal!" - the whole thing left me kind of cold. I got this job through a friend of a friend. I was always drawn to working with children and that was how I got the job. At first, I don't think I even told them I was a musician. And then along the way I said, "I could bring in my guitar." So I did, and it just happened naturally, singing with the kids, and it was so exciting...

I was playing in a rock band at the time, and I'd go see a friend's band at CBGBs and I'd find myself thinking, "What would my students think of this now? What would they think of these people? They're all tough they're trying to be, how cool they think they are." I was so much more drawn to their perspective than that of my peers at that point in my life. That was something that stayed with me for a long time.

You have this new album [Sunny Day] -- I'm curious how you go about picking songs because you have few original songs. On your records they're mostly covers, more recent songs, or folk songs -- how do you choose?
We're very open in what our interpretation of children's music is, clearly. And it's usually that the song has an openness to it that can be interpreted in many different ways. I also try, with putting a new album together, to create a new neighborhood where there's all different kind of neighbors living on the same block, where there's Augustus Pablo and Ruth Crawford Seeger as next door neighboors. To me that's a really exciting reimagining of what life can be and what kind of music can inform our daily lives. So that's a big part of it, keeping some diversity and unexpected juxtapositions of traditions, that we can all really live together peacefully and joyfully and bringing that to people through sound.

I also really love a recording like "Little Liza Jane," taking a really old song and reimagining it in a personal context. It becomes this conversation I'm having with music and songmakers from a hundred years ago and that's something I also want us all to feel with making music, pulling a thread through time.

And culture --
Yes, absolutely.

That's one of the things I like about your albums. It's not just the Velvet Underground next to Woody Guthrie song, it's also --
A Korean folk song, yes.

A Korean folk song -- where do you find those... for lack of a better word, "foreign-language" songs?
Well, I often do just through people that I meet. Our violinist, Jean [Cook], is Korean and she brought a lot of songs that her mom taught. And just now I did an interview with someone whose mother is German and French and she was going to teach me a song. I always keep my ears open and that's really the best way to learn. When we went to Japan two years ago, we asked a friend who was Japanese to teach us some language so we could get by over there and she taught us a couple of songs -- songs are a great way to learn a new language, because they're often it's really basic, elemental language and you can hold on to it, and remember a word, find that word and use it to communicate.

Well, I think Frances [England] is about to come on, so I'm going to ask one more question, and that is, so what's next for you?
Two records -- we're trying to finish a Spanish album with Suni Paz that I'm so happy about, we're so close. We sang a little Spanish today, don't know if you caught that.

I did.
"John the Rabbit"... "Juan Conejo / Si, senor." And then we've got an album called Blue Clouds, from that song "Blue Clouds," which is in the HBO Rosie O'Donnell special from earlier this year, and I guess it's a lullaby record. I was really resisting the lullaby record but I'm surrendering to it now and that one's almost done as well.

Interview: Sherry Rich Plant (The Mudcakes)

It can be hard to see half a world away, but there's an entire kids music scene in Australia apart from the Wiggles. It's small, but it's kicking, and trying to be heard. If there's a ringleader to the movement, it's probably Sherry Rich Plant, half of The Mudcakes. I've always enjoyed the Mudcakes' music, even from afar, and wanted to get Plant's view on kids music down under. Read on to hear Plant talk about her star-studded high school band, pirate TV, taking matters into her own hands, and other Australian music recommendations.

Zooglobble: What are your musical memories growing up?
Sherry Rich Plant: I grew up on an Island off the coast of Queensland, Australia. My mother Noelene Rich was a country folk singer in the 60's who toured and appeared on TV variety shows and clubs ... with the Bee Gees when they were first starting out! She was also a Girl Guide [Girl Scout] leader in charge of many large campfire singalongs and a guitar/ukulele teacher. So my brothers and I were surrounded by music whether we liked it or not! I started singing with my Mum onstage when I was 7 but I felt very shy and didn't like it much. Then when I hit my early teens my brother and I decided it was cool to play, so we learnt bass and guitar and started a high school band - which funnily enough also included Keith Urban!

What made you want to first start making music for families?
When my son Ramsay was born we were living in Nashville and I was working as a songwriter for BMG. Rick was a pro guitarist touring and doing studio work. With a new baby I lost the brain space to write anything but the little ditties that I made up to sing to him. I wrote the song "We're Going to Playschool" to help Ramsay get over his anxiety about going to childcare. Folks liked it and Rick and I decided to record some others for posterity. Before we knew it we had a whole album [Songs For Little Monkeys] and The Mudcakes were hatched. It was never a conscious decision to start making family music, but more like a natural shift in what I was writing about. I've always thought that the best art follows life.

What sound (or band) did you have in your head when you started making family music? Has that sound in your head changed at all over time?
No particular band influenced me at the start. Like I said I was just writing about my experiences as a mother. Musically we knew that we wanted to try out different styles but keep it organic/acoustic and have fun with some of the sillier instruments we'd never been able to use on our "adult music" recordings. It was later on that a friend introduced me to Dan Zanes and I really related to his refreshing approach to children's entertainment.

You've lived (and recorded music) in both the States and Australia -- what are the biggest differences between the countries in their family music scenes? What are Australia's advantages
The difference in the population. In the US there are so many big cities that you could tour 52 weeks of the year and be able to grow a niche following. In Australia the big cities are fewer with large distances in between and less people - that makes it more challenging. There are also less opportunities to get played on kids TV here.

Because there are fewer acts in Australia doing what we do [alternative independent family music] we stand out more.

What about the Australian kids music scene has frustrated you the most?
Right now I am particularly peeved about the lack of support from the huge national government funded broadcasting network here [similar to PBS Kids in the US]. They currently have an exclusive policy where only acts already featured in some aspect of their programming will get their video clips played. They try to justify it by saying if they played our clips it is like advertising but continue to make statements about how much they care about Australian children and Australian content. I think it's a shame because Australian families are missing out on finding out about the great bands that are working right here right now. Acts who, if given some airtime, may have people come out and support them instead of going to see the Dora the Explorer doll appearing at a mall somewhere.

So we are in the process of joining forces with some other "indy kindy" bands in creating a 'pirate TV' pilot for a Melbourne based public TV station. There are many summer music festivals around Australia which are great fun to play but we find that in general the kids stages never get as much funding or credibility as the "real bands." So even though we're attracting a good crowd we rarely get our photos or name in the marketing for the event. There are one or two large children's festivals but they tend to have a line-up packed with the big corporate branded acts like Ben Ten. Unfortunately Australia still suffers from the general attitude that anything from overseas is better even though there are many sensational artists in all genres working here.

Have you noticed any improvement here in the past couple years?
I've only noticed improvement because The Mudcakes have worked very hard. We are getting respect and notice from people who appreciate the quality and content in what we are doing and therefore we are offered bigger, better gigs that are supported by large cultural arts organizations. So we get to play in the amazing Melbourne Recital Centre and lovely theatres as well as doing workshops in fantastic well-funded arts spaces. We still do kindergarten shows and festivals too. But we never do children's birthday parties!

What other Australian family music artists are you fans of?
The Mighty Buzznicks, Nadia Sunde, Justine Clarke, Peter Combe, and music from the television show Playschool.

What's next for you?
Developing The Mudcakes is my main focus, but I am excited to say that I have an album coming out of "singer/songwriter" country rock songs I wrote while living in Nashville and recorded in Chicago 10 years ago with Jay Bennett [ex-Wilco] producing. It's been on hold for ages while I worked on other projects. I also work in a psych-folk duo called The Grapes and we have a CD out this year as well. The Mudcakes are busy compiling a DVD of music video hits and continuing to lead the revolution of change for family music here in Australia. We hope to come to the US and play some of the kids festivals there in the next few years.